Multiplayer Development • Re: SXRPG Version 6.0.5 -- 1.16 Server

Hello, so i took a deeper look at the post, an have to say that the feedback is much appreciated.

Classes
If I had to rank all classes on my first impressions:
1. Mage ------------- faster to build than it's Rogue version
2. Rogue Mage ----- great movment
3. Ranger ----------- strong range dmg and resi
4. Warrior ----------- good early, but melee is worse than ranged
5. Rogue Warrior --- to expensive to build
6. Cleric ------------- melee mage without magical circle (recharge)

ok, this is an interesting list, i see that melee is perhaps a bit in disadvantage, but we always have to consider that melee units are usually not one-shotted by berserk-enemies, also they can crush strong melee rushers (like reaper ghots, or elephants) by sitting on defensive terrain, and deal tons of passive damage.

in my expierience, while ranged units put more into damage (distribution between HP and DMG/STRK) melee units need more HP, to fully utilize the damage multipliers. having done that melee units can deal tons of damage with proper potions in backpack.

so i dont think we need groundbreaking balance changes here, but perhaps some subtle changes.

Overall, I think Mage classes are too strong, they don't have risks dealing more dmg with extra attacks while recharging their mana and healing themself in between for free. They can cope with any situation whereas other classes must carry and use red potion to deal with slow, blue to kill even an almost killed unit and cyan for escape.
Mage: The +20% more magic spell dmg feels weak compared to rogue mages cheap mp, but that's probably fine. Overall magic classes outshine non magic classes by a lot.

sure, mage classes get stronger in later game, they are versatile and convenient while non magic classes may seem a bit clumsy.
i may compensate that by

- reducing cost for hit-and-run a bit
- adding some kind of teleport ability to ALCHEMY (pots important for non mage classes)
- adding some ARMOR restrictions for mage-classes

• Non Magical classes: I'd like to see an extra way to deal dmg for other classes too, as those Magic spells, it's sad that non Magic classes can only spend stamina on Hit and Run and in the late game on Mercs. They could just have a Magic spells version for physical dmg.

i might add some kind of "throwing"-ability to non magical classes for physical damage, with reduced efficiency

• I don't like how you can get over 80% resistance, with 80% resi the opponent deal 5 times less dmg. I'd cap it at 80% even with bonus and would let it cost 2x resistance points to upgrade from 70-80 (not rare you end on 100% resi vs the final boss, making it deal 1 dmg per strike)

i think that could be a way to separate magic/non-Magic/melee/ranged classes and give small nerf for amgical class.

magical ranged classes would be capped at 60% (without bonus, bonus will always increase armor)
magical melee+physical ranged capped at 70%
physical melee capped at 80%

Warrior: At 1st glance a rather boring plain and weak class, tho I tried a zerk Wose with high physical resistance that was really strong in the early, I also heard, and I can see that Paladin is op as warrior with it's low upgrade cost in the early and good weapons (arcane). Initial rage on a more balanced approach was something my mate tried out, this worked fine too.

yes, we might add something to make non mages less clumsy

Cleric: A melee mage with healing. Whereas the first two combinations sound interesting, healing rather not at 2 players, also they don't have magical circle.

i definately see the lack of some kind of magical-circle-special for the cleric. this is a good point

• Teleportation: This is by far the strongest ability in game even at 2 players. You can escape almost every situation or cover your mates, alongside it's the strongest movement and that for only 75 mana.

yes, its good. however, you need 75 mana.
i might add access to some kind of teleportation ability to ALL units via alchemy-abilty

• Magic Movement: A pregiven cheaper version of regular "hit and run".

• Healspell: Whereas other factions need to spend potions to heal or ignore/risk a low self CTK mages don't need to, just heal yourself a bit. Crazy how this doesn't even cost an ability spot.

• Mages and Abilities: Magic Movement and Healspell are ability point free/pregiven, this sounds a bit unfair. Maybe have normal Hit and Run that they can upgrade. Or merge both together in a pack, so that they can be bought with 1 ability spot.

never seen it that way. i extremly rarely use healing spell even it is free, so its refreshing to see this opinion
im not sure what to so about it. IMO i considered the spell almost uselee, but is see where you come from, using mana-regen to heal and get killing sprees running.

but thats intended kinda.

maybe i make HEALING cost 1 ability slot, but CLERICS would get it for free, so some buff for cleric to make it get up in the tier list

• Extra attack (Attack Spell): Not even opt (once per turn), get a 3rd attack kill anything. It's more expensive than magic spells, but you deal more dmg. The cost for these scales with range upgrades, it's too cheap early - mid, while too expensive in the late game.

• Extra attack (Attack Spell): make it opt (once per turn) and decrease the cost increase rate, maybe cap it at 100 or 150

yeah i see later it falls a bit short, becaue of this magic-spells seem better in long run, however it (potencially) deals more damage.
so its kind of trade of.

so your suggestion is to make it lee OP via OPT in eary/mid while making it bit more useful by reducing cost in late game.

but maybe i will balance costs instead, making initial cost a bit higher and reduce costs in late game.

i see that it can be stacked with magical circle though, which is a great combo, i didnt think about

• Magical Circle: Surely mages don't use a duration amplifier as onrush, charge or hail of arrows, but just the craziest weapon special instead. As you may notice all those op magic costs mana, why not giving mages a mana generation weapon special, +2 mana per hit and 90% CTH. With this you can almost go on forever killing bosses and lesser units to recharge in between. (especially after mana or cost reduction items)

• Magical Circle: I love the idea, but +2 mana per hit with upgrades in that area is too much. I think +1 makes it more enjoyable.

perhaps the problem is the extra-attack-spell + magical-circle combo is to cheap/powerful, so i might add cost for extra-attack-spell.

the circle with just +1 would be a significant nerf.

you maybe found a great combo

Rogue Warrior: Their class bonus is weak compared to others, not a real choice unless you want to use Berserk. The extra 2 armory is cool, but setting this unit up for mid game is quite hard.

maybe rogues should get access to TOP warrior upgrades, with high multipliers and high hp they may even need a more different set-up
maybe also +1mp after kill like rangers.

Rogue Mage: Magic Movement reduced by 20% mana cost. Their class bonus is by far the strongest, having cheaper movement and magic.

yes, its good. since you often use movement-spell reduced cost will effectiveley result in having more mana for the other spells.
also resistant to berserk units

i dont think i will change that though

(other then the previously suggested armor-cap for ranged-mages)

Mercs

• Mercs are late game units you can summon for 225 stamina/mana. Those are even stronger (2-3 times) than your hero, making them 100% essential (you can scoop if you have spent all our ability points). All classes can get them for lawful + physical dmg, whereas only mages can get chaotic + magical damage. But the lawful aren't worse beside that they can't fly.

• nerf Mercs significantly that those aren't mandatory outshining op and add ranged versions for melee focused heros

this is interesting, maybe i overdid it with the mercs.

i personally never used them and considerd them useless.
so they goot beefed up, but never made it into my "must-have-list"

nerfing them a bit is basically no problem,

also adding some kind of ranged mercs is something to be considered. (but would be weak to berserk enemies or strong rushers)

• With them using melee obviously range units profit more from them to compensate their weakness.

sure

Weapon

• What we figured, and dislike is how overall good arcane attacks are with almost no problems in resistance while there is a fire ghost with 100% fire resi, not to forget cold vs ghosts/ud and physical attacks that struggle too often. Maybe resistance or units compositions can be improved in that regard. (chapter 4 is ok and 5 is fine in that regard)

yes i agree that this is perhaps an annoying part.

personally i use 2 weapons+upgrades:

- first is arcane/fire (depends on map)
- second (setup in mid game) is some kind of physical, usually impact


so i agree there is a certain META which makes most sense,
i could TRY to compensate it by giving some/all units +10% arcane resistance for example, however that might disturb balance, without real benefit

since it would change nothing about the fact that you want to have a weapon be able to deal with ghosts

so by now, only method to balance that one out is by balancing enemies, but unless you dont know what you're up against, your best choice for initial weapon would be always arcane even if that mean that you would be slightly weaker against mundane enemies.

but i see where you come from, nevertheless, there will be ALWAYS a META, which could be map dependent then
(e.g. map with strong mundane enemies in early/mid game, and later magical enemis, would be better to get physical first --- once you know the map, you buy what you need, so no matter what you do, every map will have its meta)

• I liked the idea, to have a weapon with magic + slow for your unfocused melee/range. But to buy slow is too expensive there. I'd love to see a price drop for ranged slow for the warrior, cleric and melee slow for the ranger, mage classes.

• For focused classes on melee or ranged the slow weapon special for their unfocused type should cost less, maybe 100 gold

ok. could be considered.

Overall Gameplay

• Once the ai spams mostly bosses it becomes a rather boring and dragging grind (probably fine at Expert level)

• Reduce the Boss spam and add cool events, better improve resistance or add cool events, maybe "seasons" a "longer night", "ghost party", "hunt a specific unit in time" for more fun and less repetitive gameplay

i see theat "events" or "conditions", maybe even linked to wether certain bosses are alive or not alive, could add diversification to the game, so yes thats a good suggestion

(just some random, probably meaningless number on how I feel about the scenarios)
Scenario ------ Fun -- Difficulty - Path - Options -- Opponents -- Note
Chapter 1: --- 6.5/10 --- 4/10 --- 8/10 --- 6/10 ------- 5/10 ------- It's a good beginner and speedrun map
Chapter 2: --- 5.0/10 --- 5/10 --- 6/10 --- 5/10 ------- 4/10 ------- Since that was too easy, we tried the real power of mages out yes
Chapter 3: --- 6.0/10 --- 3-6/10 - 7/10 --- 6/10 ------- 7/10 ------- Kinda free after we figured the pot out, game felt over after we killed the first 3 bosses
Chapter 4: --- 7.5/10 --- 7/10 --- 7/10 --- 6/10 ------- 8/10 ------- The number of opponents early on, the variety of units as well as path finding is great
Chapter 5: --- 6.5/10 --- 6/10 --- 6/10 --- 6/10 ------- 7/10 ------- The opponent’s unit have good resistance mix not making arcane outshine

interesting list, so i will try to improve the weaker map.

"events" and "conditions" from the previous suggestion may spice things up

• Weapon and weapon specials, melee costs more than ranged. (slow in melee/ranged 350/300, arcane weapon 90/45)

yes. it maybe doesnt make sense. but thats the way it is writen in the ancient books

• When you sell a weapon, get a payback for weapon specials that you bought, 75%. (currently when you spend gold on a bad dmg type you lost the game)

yea, can be considered.

• Bonus for early boss kills, but don't make first tun kills imba, it should just improve the flow of the game without the need to wait on a boss leader kills.

there is a bonus, you get free gold for killing leaders 6+7 each turn
also you get access to the gold chest earlier

another thing is, low players start, initial hero is stroger, so has higher chance to killl leader early, more bonus would result in even stronger single-player hero

so its difficult to balance,

but, as i write it, i may add a bonus for early killing also scaled by player number, so for every player in-game a bonus might stack up for all players.
also turn dependent. (e.g. (50 - turn-number) x player = bonus gold. turn 1 kill with 1 player = 49 bonus gold (along with free gold at star of each turn and access to gold chest, turn 10 kill with 5 players = 200 Bonus gold)

need to think about it and balance

At least those are my thoughts after we played all chapters, maybe you can consider some of those ideas.

sure, this were great suggestions, as you know

everybody has a certain style of playing, so as i complety ignore healing-spell and mercs, you find them OP, i never use extra-attack-spell, but you use it in combination with magical -circle (which is great) and consider it OP

so i guess we can do something about it. but i dont mind having good combos.

Statistics: Posted by Mabuse — 43 minutes ago

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